First+Period-+Question+7

Group Members: David Browning, Alex Scott, Abby May, Ginnie Sloan, Patrick Montgomery =**Question #7**= =How do we know that an individual is a misfit or outcast? What are the signs?=


 * Patrick**- When It comes to loners and misfits I believe anyone can fall out of any situation into that situation, that of an outcast. Anyone who changes schools for example has the tough task of fitting right in with a new group of folks. And if a good first impression isn't made with the folks at the new school, an outcast may be made of that person. It can be the simplest detail of a person that can throw them into these situations. It can be even just a conflict in interest with the initial group someone meets. They reject that person and it's a downward spiral. Many people get rejected once and never try again to get back in the "game". If one doesn't strive to meet new folks and experience new things, they can become outcasts quite easily.


 * Alex**- "Loners" and misfiuts usually shun the incrowd. They tend to be shy, or want to be alone. If they have a posse, it is usually composed of other outcasts who are intriguing in more ways than one. One's habits can determine their status. Say if one bit their nails or did other disgusting acts in public, that individual may be seen as an outcast. On the other hand, misfits act out more agressively, tending to draw more interest from the incrowd than loners. The way one sees themselves is another factor. When it comes to an outcast's confidence, it is relatively low. With misfits and popular individuals, their confidence is much higher because they are self-absorbed and able to be less concerned about their faults. With this in mind, many tend to depend on other's opinions of them. Also, many outcasts and misfits have a lot of resentment/angst against the popular group or society's values.

=

 * Izzy in response to Alex-** I’d like to focus on a few individual parts of this post and dissect those portions a bit further. I don’t intend to redefine what an “outcast” is so please read Alex’s post above to find the definition I am using. The idea that I found to be the most intriguing was that people define their social group (that of the “in crowd” or the “outcast”) by habits that they have formed. I found this idea to be especially interesting because in Whitney’s original post (Period 1. Question 3.) it is mentioned that many people form groups based on common interests (which could also be called habits sometimes). So according to these two posts an “outcast” (and his/her posse) can be of any status because no matter what your status you can have the same interests. This seems to be correct until Darien’s mentioning of the blank slate (Period 1. Question 5.). If the “outcast” is indeed a blank slate to begin with and surroundings are what defines the future actions of this person then the economic setting and status of this child will most certainly make an impression. Alex also says that an “outcast” may have resentment/angst towards society’s values. I feel like there would be more reason to resent society if you were of a lower class and so my logical conclusion from these three posts is that it seems more likely for an “outcast” to be of the lower class than upper.=====


 * Abby May**- I believe that an outcast is a person who does not fit in with others in society. They may have different interests and have nothing to talk about with the others. An outcast is a person who can't relate to his or her peers. They may wear different clothes or have different beliefs or be of a different social class. Outcasts seem to have low self-esteem. Because of this, they may seem depressed or rebellious. They usually keep to themselves and are often made fun of by their peers because they don't "fit in". I feel like outcasts usually start to hate others who fit in with the rest of society. Outcasts can be recognized as individuals who are often alone. They will usually not be attending sporting or social events because they don't get along with the people around them. They may seem cynical and may insult others to make themselves feel better. Some signs of an outcast are shyness, lack of social skills, and low self confidence. Individuals who are outcasts often try to pretend like they don't care about the people around them, or how they are treated, but I think it is only an act. I think that outcasts are afraid of being hurt because they have been hurt before by others, so they shut themselves away from social interaction and tell themselves that they don't care what others think about them.

**Claire responding to Abby:** I agree that outcasts are people who don't fit in with society at all, but I'm not quite sure how you would define society. We are all different people so how can someone not find someone to fit in with? This leads me to think that some outcasts choose to be so. Although we may never know why, I don’t think that every outcast chooses to be one. I like what you wrote about outcasts hating the rest of society, perhaps this is a reason why they chose to be an outcast in the first place. Although I don't completely agree with the statement that they put others down to make themselves feel better, I think that would just be a characteristic of a mean person, not necessarily an outcast. Also, I'm not quite sure if they pretend not to care or if it is just a general apathy. I do agree with you when you say that they have a low self-esteem though, how can someone not when they have no one to talk to or share their experiences with.


 * Ginnie Sloan-** In my eyes, I see an outcast as the kid that sits alone at lunch. I agree with Claire in that some outcasts choose to be so. A lot of the time, when someone is sitting alone at lunch, a fellow classmate will join them and try to make suttle conversation. This effort is not always appreciated. I feel that an outcast has a good sense of when someone is being sincere and when someone is being fake. This sense can set one back socially. Many times we deal with people whom we do not really get along with. Outcasts, frankly, don't give a crap about acting a certain way. Pretending to be OK with something or someone is not a part of their personality. This could be taken simply as a stubborn person, but there are other characteristics as well. Abby is correct in saying an outcast usually keeps to themself and may act depressed or rebellious, which I feel would naturally come with being/feeling alone in the world. Not to completely contradict myself, but I disagree when Abby and Claire say an outcast always has low-confidence. I believe some outcasts are "outcast" because they see themselves above everyone else. Which, in the end, leaves them with no one and sends them onto the path of lack of social skills, bitterness, etc.


 * Taylor Rogalski responding to Ginnie**: Ginnie, I have moral disagreements with your psychological description of "outcasts." Frankly, I don't think you are nearly qualified to pass that sort of blanket judgement about people whom you don't know personally. People are "outcasts" because they don't fit into the societal mold that many others conform to. They have different interests, habits, or maybe they just don't like being around people. I've known a few kids who sit alone and lunch and don't have a whole lot of friends, but that is because they have chosen to alienate themselves because they would rather be alone or stick with a few close friends. It really depends on the person. There is by no means a single reason that people either make themselves an outcast or are deemed one by their peers. It depends on numerous factors on a case-by-case basis. Stating things assuming that people who sit alone at lunch are inherently elitist is just mind boggling. I suggest you re-evaluate how you view the people around you.


 * Rachel responding to Ginnie**: I agree and disagree with what you said. I definatley think that some people choose to sit alone at lunch. Now we dont ALWAYS know whats going through their head, and they may have periods of lonliness, but i do know for a fact that i personally have tried to make friends with someone who is an "outcast" and they arent very willing. And Taylor, maybe they dont fit into the social standing of SOME people but that doesnt mean they dont fit into a social standing of others. You can put people socially into two categories. I do think that Taylor and Ginnie are right when they say that some people choose to be alone at lunch. Although Taylor, its not like you have never judged the people around you. Everyone does it. We should all try to be friends and not criticize other people on how they act socially and who they hang out with.


 * Alex responding to Abby**: The idea you pointed out with outcasts being hurt multiple times before is a great observation. If loners hate society or the incrowd, they have to have a good reason for it. Being hurt or just angst towards "the norm" can be good reasons. These variables can damage their frendliness towards others, which can lead to other altering aspects as you have said. The fact that they desire to block out others in response seems logical, but this doesn't completely mean that they aren't interested in the incrowd gossip. Some choose to listen while others (as you stated) could absolutely care less. Loners who choose to listen may worry about their appearance in front of the popular ones even if they don't socialize with them as often. Now, according to Ginnie, the rest can be rebellious or have a high self-esteem. When you say they have a low self-esteem, these two ideas contradict one another. This leaves me to assume that outcasts are just as unique (in personality, styles,etc) to one another as if they were from different parts of the world. Still, I like your thoughts on how an outcast thinks and conducts his or her self.


 * Haley responding to Ginnie**: I agree and disagree with Ginnie. Ginnie states that outcasts are above everyone in their opinions, but I believe outcasts are those who struggle to find a place where they belong. I also believe that outcasts are most likely shy and self-conscience, leading to low confidence when someone attempts to befriend them. Outcasts are those who struggle with acceptance, and that does not necessarily mean that it is the outcast's fault he or she didn't find a place to belong. I also disagree with Ginnie when she says that outcasts "don't give a crap about acting a certain way." If anything, I believe outcasts would worry more about their behavior because typically, they are very self-conscience and have low self esteem. Just because an outcast struggles more socially, does not mean that he or she deserves to be left out because it is his or her fault.


 * David responding to Ginny**: I am attempting to be as eloquent as possible, but in some situations, one needs to be blunt: I believe your statement is flat out wrong. Speaking from experience, sitting alone at a lunch table is one of them most degrading experiences that someone at that age can experience; the knowledge that no one cares about how you think or how you feel is devastating. Now, those who in actuality choose to be outcasts, are contradicting themselves. There is always a group of others who, by choice, reject societal rules. But those who have no choice in the matter are completely alone. If you choose to distance yourself from others, you generally are disgusted with society as a whole, and find others who share your beliefs. Those, like myself at one point in time, who are completely ignored have no group to turn too, and usually slip into greater depression and self loathing, not rage against the structure. The distinction must be made between those who choose, and those who are alone be default.

are the misfits in a puzzle. They're so unique that i cannot define them. I don't pay enough attention to themor their true personality. "I am illiterate" because I read a "book" by its cover. I think I look inside, but I only take a peak. "People never notice anything," just like outcasts. They have themselves to comfort. I don't think they need anyone different to do so. I am different from an outcast because I miss things and I express my feelings towards others like Phoebe. "Don't ever tell anybody anything. If you do, you start missing everybody." Even if I bury my emotions like one of them misfits, I can open the bottle once in a while. I'll let it spew and I'll unload all my burdens, even if I am misunderstood by my peer. Wait, why am i contradicting myself?
 * Alex (as Holden)**: Those who don't believe in a "norm" can kiss my ass. There is always a norm, filled with many groups such as outcasts. These scattered pieces


 * Abby (as Holden)**: What kind of a goddamn question is that? An outcast is someone who doesn't get along well with the rest of society. They're a person who is "cast out" from society or a group of people. The perfect example of an outcast is Ackley kid. He hardly ever went anywhere. He was a very peculiar guy. He was about six four- with lousy teeth. Besides that, he had a lot of pimples. He hated everybody's guts, damn near. Also, when he came into my room, he didn't want you to think he was visiting or anything. He wanted you to think he'd come in by mistake. That's the thing about outcasts; they don't fit in with the people around them and they are socially awkward. An outcast finds it hard to go out in public or to even visit the people around him. You can't hardly blame them thought, with all the goddamn phonies around every corner. I think that if it weren't for phonies, it would be a hell of a lot easier for the "outcasts" to fit in, because they wouldn't have to try so damn hard to fit in. Anyways, Ackley is the perfect example of the signs to look for in an outcast. They will look different (usually worse or less put together) than the "incrowd", be hesitant to interact with the people around them, and keep to themselves most of the time. A misfit will also likely seem to hate more popular people who fit in such as Stradlater for no good reason.

Sam Stargel responding to Abby as Holden I really enjoyed your beginning sentence and I felt that it really grasped Holden’s personality, and I feel that it really reflects Holden’s views on outcasts. I also think that your example of Ackley is very accurate, in the eyes of Holden. The part you mention about how Ackley would always come into Holden’s room, and pretend it was a mistake is a very good example. This is straight from the book, and I think it really encompasses a lot of Holden’s views. I feel like another good example of an outcast that you could have included would have been Holden himself. He tries pretty hard to fit in, and then towards the end of the book, he starts to realize that there might be something wrong with him. But, I do understand that Holden might not be in character by saying that, and would most likely just blame something else. I also think that the way you wrote your post was very accurate to that of Holden, and stuck to his character very well.