First+Period-+Question+5

Group Members: Darien Lombardi, Reade Paterno, Haley James, Peyton Kennedy, Claire Johnson =**Question #5**= ===**Are children born innocent, and gradually become corrupted by society, or are they born with a natural tendency towards corruption? (Original sin vs. Learned evil)**===

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Darien - I believe children are born as a tabula rasa (blank slate) and are influenced by their surroundings to become who they are, whether it be good, bad or a mix. A natural tendency towards corruption would either imply that they are mentally abnormal in their development causing social disfunctionality later on in life or that there are supernatural forces at work. This argument of Nature Vs. Nurture can never be proven because of the ongoing debate of religion and its validity. If religion cannot be regarded as incredible then original sin cannot be either thus leaving the debate to still carry on. If a child was determined to be evil from conception then what hope does the human race have? We as humans are characterized by gripping out destiny and directing it to our whims. If some predetermined path is chosen or forced upon us then we might as well give up all together, which I would have to say is very disconcerting. Nurture can be the most logical choice in the argument, but alas it is all personal disposition to certain beliefs that shape our opinions and logic.======

Megan (responding to Darien): I agree with Darien that children are born innocent. I think that a child's complete surroundings influence what they turn out to be like. For example, I am more alike to my sisters than my friends because I grew up with the same parents in the same situation. I don't think it is possible for a child to be born as good or bad because babies don't have thoughts. They can't remember anything or think like an adult would, so they can't be good or bad. I agree with the statement that if we already have a predetermined path, why don't we just give up. If we're either born "good" or "bad", then there is an excuse for humans to say they have no choice. Was Adolph Hitler born corrupt, or was it his choice and his surroundings that forced him to be the person he was? I believe that humans are formed by society and are corrupted.

Kendyl Cole responding to Darien: I completely agree with Darien's belief that children are born as a blank state. I don't think it's possible for someone to be born into this world corrupted, with no interference from outside forces needed. People, children in particular, are like sponges, absorbing everything that happens around them, whether they are good or bad influences. Children are born innocent, simple, and naive. Society is what pollutes the easily molded minds of children and corrupts them. The environment, location, and adult figures that children grow up in and around are detrimental to their personal development. If you look at any well known evil or corrupted person, you can usually find that as a child, this person grew up with negative influences that took part in molding them into a bad person. We are born into this earth as completely untarnished, society and and a number of other factors in life are what determine what kind of person we will be.

Emily H responding to Darien: I think it's an interesting that he brought up Nature vs. Nurture. I believe the same in that a child is born with a clean slate and it is their surroundings that "corrupt" them. I do disagree with his definition of original sin, because from my understanding it doesn't state that the child is evil just that they are not without sin. However, I don't quite believe in all that. I believe the influences in our lives help determine our outcome. Whatever that may be. I don't think there's a set formula for determining whether or not someone has a tendency towards corruption. I'm not sure that anyone does.

Claire- I think that children are born innocent. They have no idea what society is like yet and can therefore pass no judgments. I agree that children are completely influenced by their parents and their surroundings. Someone either wants to be just like their parents or nothing like them. It works the same with other prominent people in your life. Either way, you are shaped by your environment. I believe corruption comes from knowing reality and how others act. Corruption is something that comes with time, one isn't born into it. Being a genuinely good person comes from the realization that one person can stop evil or corruption. What I am basically trying to say is that children are molded by their surroundings and a lot of experience in different situations. People may //turn// good or evil, but no one is born a specific way unless they have a mental issue that makes them sway their opinion about the world negatively or positively. This shows that children are gradually corrupted by society.

Josh responding to Claire - I agree with Claire here about original sin and corruption. There is no way for a child to be born with anything but a blank slate. Children cannot be born with inherent corruption, solely, the possibility that they will one day fall to it. But that is as likely as them remaining good and whole. I do not see purity as necessarily good, and corruption as necessarily bad, just two contrasting expressions. I think what Claire is saying is correct, we mold children into who they will choose to become, there is nothing pushing them in any way once they've been conceived besides the people around them. There is no way for them to have been influenced any other way besides parents, friends, and family. Anyone can fall to corruption, but it is their own choices. Children ask questions and explore, it only makes sense that some would ask the wrong questions, and make the wrong choices.

Emily Ashley responding to Darien- I am commenting mostly on the line you said of " A natural tendency towards corruption would either imply that they are mentally abnormal in their development causing social disfunctionality later on in life or that there are supernatural forces at work." I have to disagree. It is true that our definitions of corruption may be different, but the way I see it, a natural tendency towards corruption, is just a natural part of life. When children are very young, they are almost all naturally curious. I believe that curiosity never fully leaves you, and begins to really show itself again during ones adolescent years. A person is naturally curious, which would sometimes lead them into situations that will later corrupt them. Yes, a person may be aware that they are entering a potentially harmful situation that could possibly corrupt them in the future, but sometimes the curiosity out weighs the innocuousness of the situation. So in the end, the natural curiosity of humans leads them into corruption.

Haley James- I believe that children are all born innocent. They are born into a world, relying solely on those surrounding them to influence them. When children are born, all they know is that their parents' behavior is what should be accepted as normal. They do not have the ability to understand the differences between right and wrong because their brains are still developing. What is shown to them is what they accept to be how life should be. Therefore, they know only to behave as their parents do, to a certain extent. Until a certain age, children absorb everything in their surroundings and take it in as how they should act and behave. If a parent, or any other major influence in a child's life, acted evil or sinful around their child, they have corrupted their child towards evil and behavioral issues. A child is essentially born a saint. They have not misbehaved, they have not had bad thoughts, and they have not done anything to hurt anyone. It is their surroundings that influence them to believe that it is either normal to act with corruption, or to behave according to rules of society. Young children, with the inability to make significant decisions, rely on society to teach them how to act and behave.

Nancy Perez comment to Haley James- I agree with Haley that children are born innocent. Babies come to a world that is sinful and what they get to see first they will learn from it and would not know if it is good or bad. The parents carry a responsibility to take care of their child and to teach him or her the differences of good and bad. And to what Haley said, " all they know is that their parents' behavior is what is accepeted as normal" This is very true. For an example, a family that has gone through domestic violence; the child sees whats going on and if it happens repeatedly it becomes normal in their minds. That its okay what his of her parents are doing. Then the child would probably would do the same in his or her family. Thats a result that might happen later on in the future. Recent results are probably misbehaviors at school. Many phycologists say that if something is not done to make the child understand what his of her parents did was bad it can becomes a scyle, The good thing is that it can be stoped. It could be stoped if tha child comes to understand, to know the differneces between good and bad. Not only do the child's parents infuence him or her but the people that are around him the most also do. As an older sister, I am reminded that I should be more careful to what I do and to what I say because my bother and sisters look up to me. I am not their mom, but I am someone they look up too. I'm a rolemodel to them and my life should reflet something good to them.

Reade Paterno- I think that children are born neither good nor evil, and that it is the environment and the world's influence that makes them whatever they are. Everyone is born without any preconceptions, and with the ability to do both good and evil. They have no innate moral code to follow, and it is society that instills this in them. I don't think that humans have a tendency to be corrupt, but I think that humans are innately selfish. In terms of just being animals and the instinct to survive, humans are going to make sure that we take care of ourselves before others. It is not until we get to an age where we realize the true effects of our selfishness on others that we lose our selfishness and gain one more moral. Whether or not being evil is nature or nurture, I believe that no one is really completely evil or completely good. We all have tendencies to commit both actions, and no one is completely one or the other. I think that if you were to look at humanity as a whole though, and see whether humans commit more good or more evil actions, there would be more good than bad. Overall, we are good people, and we have progressed morally throughout life. If you were to just talk to any random person on the street, I bet you would more often than not find someone that has generally good morals.

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Kent (commenting on entire group)- I agree with Reade, I do not think that we are completely pure or innocent when we are born into society. We have obviously never been introduced to some of the horrible aspects of reality when we are born, like others have said. However, we all have natural tendencies to do certain things that only seem to show in the direst of situations. People will do certain things in order to stay alive, or to advance themselves in society. Although it seems very selfish it can be seen in everyday lives. For example, in the most recent news some of the top executives of these banking companies are still getting substantial bonuses at the end of every paycheck. This may seem unfair but it just shows how selfish humans can be. Another example that can be seen in younger children who have just been born is actions taken by toddlers or infants. When we were very young, I can remember (I’m sure you can relate) stealing possessions that did not belong to me, thinking that it would be funny, or just taking something probably not knowing what I was doing. I think these undermining actions relate to what adults later in life will eventually do, just on a much higher scale. Although many younger children may seem innocent, I think there is a “hidden” aspect that every person has in their brain that is filled with some sort of sin.=====

Izzy in response to Claire (and everyone else)- I’m responding to a statement of Claire’s but this post could be directed to other posts under the question as well. “They have no idea what society is like yet and can therefore pass no judgments.” I feel like this phrase demonstrates our inclination towards western religion and culture even when we’re not conscious of it’s influence (not to say that’s a bad thing). Forgive me if the rest of my post is inaccurate and feel free to correct me if my facts are in some way wrong. When looking at Mahayana Buddhism (the form of Buddhism that most modern people would be able to fit into their daily lives) reincarnation is part of the overarching goal (to attain nirvana but come back to help others achieve enlightenment. These people are called bodhisattvas). I believe that if a person is reincarnated and is expected to learn some sort of lesson, which seems to be necessary to reach nirvana, then somewhere inside them there must be a remembrance of a previous life. In Claire’s statement though, she talks about passing judgment and in this religion (or philosophy depending on who you ask) I think judgment is avoided by the Buddhas. So perhaps it could be that the only children born with a blank slate are those who have attained nirvana. (and now for something completely different (except not really). This makes me wonder if because people have some remembrance of past lives (according to earlier in this post) when they are not a buddha, does that work the same way for those who have achieved their goal in becoming enlightened? Would a baby know that they are a bodhisattva and then "forget" until the time comes that they are put in the right position?)

Emily responding to pretty much everyone -Surely they haven’t done anything but I think the personality traits passed on by there parents could factor into how they turn out as an adult. This however is not the only factor. I think it is a combination of both traits and circumstances in their life. Personality traits can effect the way a person deals with a situation or an experience. One person might do one thing while their brother might do something completely different. As for the question of Original Sin v. Inherent Evil, I don't think either is accurate. Then again how can anyone know.

Abby (responding to Claire)- I agree with Claire that children are not born corupt, but are influenced by their parents, school, community, religion, or world events later in life. For example, usually children who are allowed to do whatever they want when they're young, end up getting into trouble when they later realize that they can't always control everything. Sometimes these children will not know how to act correctly or will not know right from wrong, since they were never tought it. However, sometimes children who are too harshley treated by their parents, end up rebelling against what their parents tell them is right. I think that if a child grows up in any extreme conditions like these, they will have problems later in life which can lead to them becoming corrupted. Other influences can lead to corruption of a child. For example, a child could be brought up by Nazis which would corrupt them. However, I believe that all children are born innocent, and they will remain innocent unless their bringing-up leads them to become corrupted.

Haley James(as Holden)- Youth is pure and innocent. Kids are born innocent and have yet to be corrupted by the phonies of society. All they do is play and enjoy life. I wish things never changed and that everyone could stay as innocent as a kid. I wish life was like a museum where "everything stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move...Nobody'd be different." That was, the innocence capture in a child when they are born a little while after that would remain in them. Eventually, kids grow, and so many of them are influenced by the phony society. Why do you think society is so phony? It's because everyone grows up thinking it is alright to be phony. Society is to blame for corrupting kids. If it weren't for society, kids would grow up thinking for themselves and not following society; not becoming phony. Society steals kids' innocence, and I really hate that. I miss childhood, and I feel bad for others who lose their child hood also. That's when everyone's innocent: a child and when they're born.

Claire Johnson- Every single person in this world is born an innocent child. Only society can corrupt him or her as he or she gets older. Most people become phonies. I have gone to many schools and met many people; I know this for a fact. The people that go their own way realize what the world really is; those are the people that stay innocent. There are very few people like this. If you stop thinking for a minute, you lose it. You say things you don't really know what you're talking about. Like that night I met Sunny, I said, "It was against my principles and all, but I was feeling so depressed I didn't even //think //. That's the whole trouble. When you're feeling very depressed, you can't even think." (91) For me, it is already too late. I've been forced to conform while I was trying to find out who I was. I'll probably grow up to be one of those phonies I hate so much but at least I've realized everything now. Now I can at least try to save all those innocent children. I can stop them from falling off that cliff in the field of rye.

Reade Paterno (Holden)- All the kids in this world are born innocent, and its goddamn society that corrupts them. Kids are great, and they bang the hell out of me. They're not worried about the world or anything, they're really not. They just go along with their lives, doing little things that make them happy. They have no responsibilities, no expectations, nothing. Everything they do doesn't really have any repercussions for them, and they get to //really// enjoy life. Now society, full of goddamn phonies, is what //really// corrupts them. I mean it really messes them up and takes away their innocence. Take my kid sister Phoebe for instance. She's great, and she really bangs the hell out of me. But I know that someday, she's going to reach that point when society has taken her innocence. Its stupid people that do things like write "Fuck you" on walls that ruin them. When I saw it at Phoebe's school, **__I thought how Phoebe and all the other little kids would see it, and how they'd wonder what the hell it meant, and then finally some dirty little kid would tell them,__** and just thinking back to that moment makes me sick. I really would be a catcher in the rye if I could, I swear to God. I would protect all the kids from society, and no goddamn phonies would mess them up. They would be like the museum, where everything stay the same, and nothing is ever messed up.

Andriy Rusyn (response to Reade) I like the way you portrayed Holden, I think it’s a really accurate representation of the way he thinks. He really struggles throughout the story with his own identity. But when it comes to kids, he is always certain of their innocence. Using Phoebe as an example is perfect, as she is his own example of an innocent child that is in danger of being corrupted by society. The quote is great too, as it perfectly summarizes exactly what he thinks is wrong with the world. The world, according to Holden, is just a place where kids are born perfect, and then teenagers and adults can easily ruin this innocence. It’s a battle that is impossible to win, but he wants to fight it as best he can. He really does want to be a catcher in the rye, the one who stops the children from losing their innocence in the world.

Patrick- (As Holden) Youth's are very pure and innocent. They aren't phonies because they are yet to be corrupted by goddamn adults. Adults don't let children become their own person, because when they reach my age they've conformed to society and become clones. The general standpoint is that youths must become a certain way to be successful. Children can do whatever they like, they have no reason to conform and loose their happiness. A person generates their personality as a child, and if that childhood is tainted with phoniness, their is no true personality, only another set of ideas pushed through another. Goddamn adults. They don't want any change to occur. They want everything to stay the same as it has been because they cannot deal with anything new. I want to help take care of youths and not let them get into trouble with conformity, I want to be their safety net.

Darien- (As Holden) Whose to say what the hell a kid is when it's born. Believe or not I've known some pretty rotten kids that had just come out of the ol' hatcher. Bad eggs are what i'd call them if I were to put a label on any of the snot nosed punks. Come to think of it, all the rotten kids that I've ever known had been spawned out of some bourgeois swanky joint where respect and privilege had been earned through inheritance rather than good will. A kid can become any kind of kid that kid wants to be, I guess. There was a dream that I had a while back that was of all the little rascals playing in a field of rye. The innocence of a child playing really is something you cannot ignore or deny, there is no taint in their motives. "Anyway, I keep picturing all these little kids playing some game in this big field of rye and all. thousands of little kids, and nobody's around - nobody big, i meant - except me. And I'm standing on the edge of some crazy cliff. What i have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff - i mean if they're running and they don't look where they're going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That's all i do all day. I'd just be the catcher in the rye and all. I know it's crazy, but that's the only thing I'd really be good at." Catching the little rascals is like saving them from the nurture of the world that will inevitably corrupt them into doing evil shit like I have. I can now understand why the hell teachers choose their jobs. The education sector is truly the most noble field of career choice, hah.