Third+Period-+Question+7

Group Members: Bradli Crump, Sam Stargel, Andriy Rusyn, Erin Connolly, Natalie B =**Question #7**= =How do we know that an individual is a misfit or outcast? What are the signs?= Natalie Barroso - Not that I neccesarily agree with this, but I heard about something called the Goffman's Theory of Stigma, which was developed in 1963. It states that people who had some sort of mark is considered an outcast or misfit. This "mark" can be the color of skin, a wheelchair, etc. This mark is what makes them different from the general norm, which is of course white men. It's whatever that makes them different from the majority. People with these marks will try to change themselves so that they can be accepted into the norm. For example, handicapped people will get prosethtic legs in order to seem more "normal." Another example would be in the movie "Philiadelphia," in which Tom Hanks' character has Kaposi's sarcoma lesions on his face, and he uses make-up to cover them up so that he can "pass" for normal, or a person not with AIDS. However, the requirements to be accepted is loosening up a bit, especially since 1963. The Goffman Theory is still widely known, though, today. I do not really agree with this definition of misfit or outcast. When I think of an outcast, I think of someone who has isolated themselves from society and has little or no friends. They are usually very introverted, therefore not sharing their feelings with others. They do not socialize very much and constantly feel alone. The way Holden talks about how much he feels like he is alone makes him seem like an outcast. He doesn't seem to have a friend to talk to and is not very accepted by his other classmates at school. I think of these definitions I guess more on a high-school level, though it can also be applied to the outside world. What do you guys think of the theory?

adam g.-- To my bestest friend Natalie, I believe being a misfit has something to do with both Goffman’s Theory and your own ideas. There are definitely two ways to become a misfit, either physical or social. Sadly I believe Goffman is right that our society does have a specific “general form”, and there can be consequences in not matching this form. People want to be around people that look normal to them, and may avoid people who have that unlucky mark that makes them stand out. It isn’t necessarily the person’s fault if they have some mark, but as shameful as the truth is, it can sometimes make a huge difference in another person’s opinion of them. And I agree with you that someone that looks normal can still become a misfit just by social behavior. This may be the person’s fault or it may not, as some people just have a hard time fitting into the social norms of society, while others just choose not to. Whatever the reason, I believe the feeling of isolation could tie most misfits together, as you mentioned, because by definition they stand out from society in a lousy way. Unfortunately I do not know a plethora of things about the inner workings of a misfit’s mind because I am still on my quest to becoming the most popular kid in school and cannot afford to spend a day walking in a misfit’s shoes.

Andriy Rusyn - Throughout history, many different species have sought to find a way to one up their competition, and mammals are a testament to the power of social interaction. We are such social animals, feeding off each other in our daily interactions, and we have developed a highly complex social structure to help regulate and maintain these interactions. As in any system based around such an intricate set of rules and customs, there are always exclusions to the rule, but as our species transcended the simple struggle of survival that for so long defined our existence, individuals who failed to fit into a social group gained prominence for their unique perspectives and ideas. In other words, “misfits” have become an important part of our society, crucial to the machinery that propels humanity forward. As a person matures and develops a sense of identity, they may begin to notice that they disagree with the culture they find themselves a part of. Religion, Geographic Location, and local tradition all play an important role in our social interactions, and these things are all very crucial parts of any society. A person who finds themselves opposed to any small part of this system, therefore, must either accept defeat and join the herd, or further isolate themselves and push away social norms. It is important to note, however, that social exclusion is not always the result of an individual’s choice. Humans have a tendency to struggle for positions of power in their group, and the loser of such a struggle is often cast aside. These losers are often further discriminated against, as the victor uses their defeat to further propel themselves, a tendency which only leads to further isolation. Whether or not an individual has chosen to be a misfit, there are many factors that connect these people and allow us to make several generalizations. These individuals have a tendency to internalize all conflict, emotional or otherwise. Their isolation ruins the trust that enables most people to openly share emotions, and they often enter a cycle of self isolation which is very clear. Another key similarity is that, in regions where traditions or culture are based around dress, music, language, or any other such factor, individuals who have failed to become a part of the group tend to separate themselves. Misfits tend to have a unique version of all of the above things, which enables them to be easily spotted in a group. Misfits might reject religion, have a different kind of dress, or use a transformed form of their mother tongue. In other cases, misfits try not to accept defeat, instead choosing to try and fit in, against all odds. These types of people are much harder to spot, as they tap into human’s natural talent for camouflage, mimicking their surroundings almost perfectly. In these cases the only way to spot them is to examine their interactions with others. Misfits are often eccentric, because in their attempt to fit in they tend to exaggerate certain things they see as “normal”. Others react very interestingly to this, often playing along, but sometimes flatly rejecting a person and outright pointing out the falsehood that is their personality.

Sam Stargel- I think that we know that an individual is an outcast or misfit, by looking at how the rest of society acts. There is definitely a general form that people must take if they wish to fit into a society. If a person is different, they usually stand out and are considered an outcast. For example, in very rural parts of Africa, if you were white you would definitely be an outcast to society. But if a native of these rural parts in Africa were to come to America, they would definitely be an outcast. Just because you are not a misfit somewhere else, doesn’t mean you fit in everywhere. But, being a misfit does not have to be based on looks alone. For example, I traveled abroad this past summer in a place where the native language was not English. Now from just looking, you could not tell that I was a foreigner but because I did not speak the native language, I would have been labeled an outcast. It’s also interesting to think about how these labels change greatly. Looking at the history of America, it can be seen that the culture has changed a lot. Take the time period of //The Crucible// and compare it to a time of //Catcher in the Rye//. The location did not change, but the time period is incredibly different, which makes the idea of an outcast very different. An outcast can also be defined by there views. If you take a place like the Yemen, it can be seen that women are not allowed to show much of their body at all, and this is completely normal for them. But in America, it is normal for women to dress how they want, and no one says much to them at all if it’s too revealing to Yemenis standard. And again if you swap the two women, they will both be outcasts in the other’s country.

Bradli Crump - Being a 'misfit' or an 'outcast' is extremely easy. Socially, humans tend to group themselves in bunches according to common characteristics. It doesn't take rocket science to understand that factors such as race, socioeconomic situation, cultural background, ideals, level of intelligence, interests, hobbies, and even occupation can determine 'who' you interact with comfortably. History books attest to concepts such as xenophobia and antiforeignism, both of which persist to this day. One example can be found in Switzerland, home of one of the United Nations' headquarters: Geneva. As Middle Eastern immigrants emigrate into western and eastern Europe, establishing their own cultural communities, we see extreme forms of islamophobia. A recent law in Switzerland banned the construction of new minarets characteristic to mosques, citing that they are interfering with 'traditional beauty of the city', yet no such restrictions have been placed on Christian structures. Once we understand that humans group themselves to characteristics, individual persons placed into situations where they only have a limited number of 'type' communities may find that //none// of the available groupings can apply. The classic example of this, one that is paralleled in //The Catcher in the Rye// is the adolescent social hierarchy associated with school systems. When a person cannot find their 'niche' they become a social outcast. The signs: limited contact, desperation, failure of basic communication skills (too nervous, trying to fit in, literally trying to speak a different 'language' in a different 'culture'), depression, despair, etc. In Holden's case, he can't find that one group. He despises the jocks, he isn't good at subjects, and his strong suit-english-doesn't seem to have a general group he can belong to. As such, he shows these symptoms (desperation, thinking about calling //anyone// just to have someone to talk to; limited contact, he leaves Ackley and Stradfelt for a hotel, even though he says he's lonely; depression, he wanders aimlessly, searching for something to right his world). This kind of concept can be difficult to understand for a biased audience (heck, even //I// might be biased, and probably am), so I proceed with caution in writing this to an adolescent audience. //Most// high schoolers ar e able to place themselves, network, and even though drama in high school is almost a given, social happiness can be relatively stable for the majority. The problem Holden, and many other thousands of high school outcasts is that they are treated the same way the Swiss are beginning to treat Muslims. In the most cliché summarization, these adolescents are misunderstood.

Erin Connolly - Someone that’s a misfit or an outcast is someone that just doesn’t fit the mold that surrounds him or her. Although exact specificities are in the eyes of the beholder, there is I general ideal of what this particular breed of person is likely to be like. Going by the stereotypes, they would be a shy, stuttering introvert who has trouble relating to others and is more of a “loner”. The only way that you could truly pick out a misfit would be in a social situation. This would be observed most likely by looking for a person that was not in any way inclined to socialize with the people around them and are also more content to be off by themselves somewhere. Not only are outcasts the ones off in a corner, but sometimes they can’t be trying to be social but just clearly not very successful. Everyone knows one or two of those people that try their best to be “a part of the group” but just cant quite cut it. While it is rather sad for these people you know that there is just not much you can do. Signs of being a fit for this particular category would be mainly any type of isolation, chosen or not. Also forms of social awkwardness can hint at said person being a misfit. In my opinion, being an outcast is not something that particularly is sought out by most people but more of something to try to overcome.

Maddie Gilmore- Here's my response to Natalie's comment... I think that this Goffman's Theory is pretty narrow-minded. It only considers physical abnormalities that might distinguish an outcast from a "normal" person. While it is true that in many societies, this theory would indeed describe the situation of an outcast, I believe that the definition of a misfit extends beyond mere appearances. I have to agree with you when you say that you think of an outcast as someone who is isolated from society. I don't think that they always do it to themselves, however. For example (and I know that this is dumb example), in Mean Girls, that one main character got ostracized because she wrote that slam book. I guess all of that is besides the point. Misfits, I feel, show several signs that would distinguish them from a "normal person," including the fact that they are reserved and have trouble socializing. They are introverted, as you said. Finally, I think that many people like to think of themselves as misfits, when in reality, they belong to a group of people with similar ideas. For me, these people are not true outcasts; they are just putting on an appearance as being counter-culture and all. They're phonies, as Holden would say. A true outcast can identify with no one.

Lisa- My response I agree with Maddie. The theory is really narrow-minded. I think someone becomes an outcast because of his/her character and not only because he/she is physically different from others. But I guess other people can see that someone is an outcast by looking how that person acts when he/she is surrounded by other people. They don´t know how to act in society, are not self-confident and shy. Or outcasts try to get all the attention and don´t realize that other people do not really care. I think people have a feeling that tells them someone is a misfit.

Alexa (response) - I think that Natalie’s point about Goffman’s Theory of Stigma is interesting. While I think that, as Adam, Maddie, and Lisa pointed out, there are definitely other factors involved, Goffman’s Theory of Stigma unfortunately holds some truth. Although I think it may have had more validity during the 1960s when it was developed, since humanity seems to have matured to some degree, people do tend to isolate those that have physical differences from themselves. However, the point that physical attributes are not the only things that make people misfits is definitely true as well. Like Maddie said, the definition of misfit extends beyond mere appearances. Beyond the other factors everyone said, I think that a major contribution to whether someone is a misfit is their own perception of themselves. If they don’t want to fit in with the people around them or think that they’re too different, they can isolate themselves.

Sarah H (response): I also think that Goffman's Theory is shallow in that true outcasts are outcasts because of more than just their appearance and how it may differ from society considers normal, although that may be part of it. That's like saying that every person in a wheelchair, or who has scars, is an outcast. I disagree with this wholly because I think that a person is an outcast based on their personality and social behavior, maybe even mental conditions, rather than what they physically look like. I agree with Maddie in that a lot of people think they are outcasts and there are certain social groups that take pride in being considered 'misfits' or 'outcasts,' but they are not true outcasts at all. It is hard for me to say whether or not Holden is an outcast. I agree with Natalie that he seems like an outcast because he has to thoroughly search his mind for somebody to call up or hang out with, and seems very alone. However, Holden is always calling people phonies and judging them, even though he really is a phony himself, making him the same as everybody else. I definitely do think that he has some social problems perhaps, but it is hard to say whether he is truly an outcast from society or not.

Sam Stargel (response to Bradli) I think that it’s interesting you bring up the Switzerland ban on minarets. I am not saying I agree with it, but the ban does in fact keep the “traditional beauty of the city”. Switzerland is not a historically Muslim country, and Minarets have are very Middle Eastern, and the structures themselves do not fit in with Swiss culture. It’s also important to point out that the ban had nothing to do with the prevention of the faith. Also, it is important to point out that it was a popular vote that decided this. But, I definitely agree with your point about how when a person cannot find their niche they become a social outcast. I think that it really pertains to Holden, and I also agree with you assessment of how his dislikes and strengths have put him in this position. I also agree with you when you say most students are able to place themselves, but like you said, many cannot. I sometimes find though, that many of these students, who cannot find their niche right away, usually end up in the right place, after some adjusting.

Kristofer Holmquist (responding to Bradli)

I certainly agree with most of your points. It's a shame that Switzerland, which hosts the United Nations and is supposed to show neutrality when facing conflict, would allow such a decision to be made. I know the Swiss to act concealed and be doubtful of change, but to know that a popular vote was made and revealed the real sentiments of its citizens is a disappointment. Though, as Sam said, it's not an actual attack on the practice of the religion or other liberties, though it is most likely not just an aesthetics issue, because like most cities, not every part is attractive. I also agree with the social "niches" and its ties back to Switzerland. It seems to be the ones who join a society after it has already been established that are not accepted as easily. This has happened countless times over the course of history. All Holden is feeling is a lack of identity with himself and people around him. In time I think the character should fine a place to fit in, with people just like himself.

__Natalie Barroso__ (from Holden's perspective) It's depressing as hell, but I think that the misfits and outcasts of society are the ones who can step out of their shells and see how phony people really are. People seem to be blinded by the rest of the society, as they do what others are doing just to fit in. For example, that whole clapping business people do as someone just finished up a crappy show. Take old Ernie. He can't play the piano with a damn, but since people clap for him, he thinks he's so good and tries to act all humble about it. As I said on page 84, "He [Ernie] was putting all these dumb, show-offy ripples in the high notes, and a lot of other tricky stuff that gives me a pain in the ass. You should've heard the crowd, though, when he finished. They went mad. They are exactly the same morons that laugh like hyenas in the movies at stuff that isn't funny...I don't even think he knows when he's playing right or not. It isn't all his fault. I partly blame all those dopes that clap their heads off - they'd foul up //any//body if you give them the chance." People begin to do things and act certain ways to please the crowd. Even though it may not be any //good//, society accepts you. This acceptance becomes a goddam addiction, and then you forget what really sounds good or what you really like. However, if you're like me, then you'll finally see the real thing and realize how phony most of society is. The people that are not phonies are morons because they buy into this idea of acceptance. Therefore, the one and only sign is noticing the major flaws in things that other people accept as "good." You finally realize that most of the people that we look up to, such as ivy league students and actors, are phonies. They are no longer real. The only real people are the outcasts.

Andriy Rusyn (Responding as Holden) The best way to tell a real person from a phony is to look at how they act. Phonies always try to pretend that they are somebody else, but they never have the nerve to be their goddam selves. I figure a misfit is someone who doesn’t want to play the game everybody keeps talking about. They’re the ones who just live life, instead of pretending to do it just to keep up their goddam appearances. Take Stradlater, that phony makes everyone think he’s a star, but he’s a phony if I ever saw one. People like him are exactly the opposite of what I’d call a misfit. Misfit’s, see they’re the ones who have a problem. Everyone else can spot a misfit a mile away just like us misfits can spot phonies a mile away. Take the cab driver I talked to about the ducks on page 60, when I asked him where they went, he replied “What’re you tryin to do bud, kid me?” See, people like him can spot a misfit like me any day, based on all the childish questions I ask and everything. See, even though I thought maybe I was the best for not being a phony, sometimes it’s just downright depressing not fitting in. It makes me wonder if maybe there is something wrong with me, since everyone else is so great at playing that game Old Spencer was talking about, getting past neckin with girls and fighting to settle arguments, but not me, I’m the one who wonders about silly things like ducks. That's how you tell a misfit, you can see they think a little deeper about this crap.

Andriy Rusyn (revisiting my original response) I do not think that my opinion has changed much after having read the book. If anything, it has reinforced my ideas. Holden's rejection of religion is a perfect example of this. He rejects religion because of the fact that he feels it is such a crucial part of the identity of many of his peers, something which he is trying to separate himself from. His view of relationships is another example of this, as he constantly changes it based on who is talking about. One moment he says that he is sexually interested in someone, another that he has no interest in sex whatsoever. I think he is a misfit primarily because he has such a hard time making up his mind about what he wants to do. He struggles in defining an identity for himself, something which is made even harder by his spiraling depression. I think he sees others as misfits also due to their lack of a well defined identity, or at least the discrepancies between their outward and inward appearance. Holden is a character that wants those two things to be the same, but he has a very hard time figuring out how to do that, something which just further isolates him from his peers.