Third+Period-+Question+5

Group Members: Edward Lytle, Bridget Gallagher, Kristofer Holmquist, Nick Bailey =**Question #5**= ===Are children born innocent, and gradually become corrupted by society, or are they born with a natural tendency towards corruption? (Original sin vs. Learned evil)===

Kristofer Holmquist- We are like computers, our innocent chips and graphical interface look appealing, event cute. Though, it's not until the computer has seen the real internet and has commenced to understand its depth and horror that he changes his layout. Though, not all computers are the same and they do not see the internet through the same bandwidth. Each computer travels through the immense and complicated web in different manners and learn different things at different times. Not all computers are created equal, some with larger hard drives, faster RAM, faster processors, Higher resolution graphics cards and more finely tuned sound chips. This leads to changed perceptions in the life of a computer. One may have data that another does not and those small bytes of information make all the difference on the computer's morality and integrity towards other computers on the internet. So, if I were to talk about humans, this would all be exactly the same. Therefore, I believe that kids learn evil in life, from the ways their parents treat them even before they can talk to the way they look and the way society teaches them to interact with other people. Evil will just follow what is learned as acceptable by people. Though, evil is not necessarily the only outcome of a child living in today's society. It all depends on who you talk to, but as Ernest Hemingway said "happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know." According to his views, a computer that has browsed the internet and has gathered a large amount of information will become depressed. However, this is not exactly evil. The question thus remains, does complete knowledge lead to unhappiness or evil?

Neel Patel Kris, I love the analogy, and I agree with it all the way. Humans are born tabula rasa (with a clean slate). They are innocent, and they learn from the people around them. If this were not true, why would there be so many different personalities of people? The environment in which anyone is raised has a great effect on that person. Someone never exposed to violent and scary movies may think that some simple action movie is scary, while others would believe it is cheesy or possibly uninteresting. Babies are born pure; their minds have not been altered by the world. As they grow up, they gain varying levels of sin. Now, purity and sinfulness are not respectively good or bad. Purity isn't really something that someone would want to have, because, in a way, purity means lack of experience. On the flipside, sin can be seen as good in the sense that such sin has led to experience. To me, sin is very much like exposure. It is something that isn't inherently good, nor is it inherently bad. Children are born pure, but this purity must be broken for said children to have successful lives.

David Wheaton (Comment) Although I do not fully understand parts of Kris’s computer reference, as I am not a technology person, I think that his point is very valid. I do not, however, think that there is one answer to the question of whether knowledge leads to complete good or evil. I think it could have either result. If a person were molded by society and his or her own personality traits to be generous with his or her knowledge, then the result would be good. Conversely, a person with a malicious personality would likely sow evil with complete knowledge. Learning more about the world is not the same thing as personal development. Therefore, absolute knowledge is unlikely to go hand in hand with either good or evil, especially since almost everyone has good and bad traits. Therefore, each person starts out with a blank slate and his or her personal development determines the result of understanding the world. Erin Connolly - In response to both Kris and Neel, I agree with both of you for the most part. The fact that children are born pure and corrupted as they go along is very true. The only thing i would add to both of your statements is that not only are we more subject to nature and nurture than just nurture. We need to remember that certain characteristics and personality traits are given to us genetically and can have some effect on our tendencies later in life. While this is a sort of foundation for who we are later to become, the rest comes from the people we meet and the places we go that have the most impact on our lives. Also Kris, your Hemingway quote is spot on, the more we learn in life tends to corrupt us; its just an unfortunate side affect of society today.

Nick Bailey- I would say that children are born with a natural sense towards corruption, but some choose to embrace it and some do not. They go on to learn how to become "evil" or "good" in our society and make choices based on their own ideals. I think that original sin is something that you would have to fully believe in or not at all. In reference to Kris's statement that kids learn evil in life, is something that frankly, no one understands. What makes someone evil? Their actions? Their ideals? or is it society? Does society determine if something is evil and then if it does, then who came up with that idea? What if the person is trying to do something good and then are misunderstood and its taken as something evil? That is why I say someone is born corrupted and then is treated by society based on their actions and not society's. Their are arguments that people become corrupted by society but then answer me this question. If Hitler never existed, would have the Holocaust still happened? Yes, because someone else would have stepped up and it still would have happened. The Universe has a plan and people are born to fulfill that plan. People are either born evil and develop it or are born good and develop it. Or maybe, is it a possibility that ALL people are born evil and then those refuse to accept society's ideals are evil and those who do are not?

Elizabeth Marshall (commenting as Holden):Children are born innocent. They are free from the tain of the adult world, and because of this they are pure. It is growing up that makes us all corrupt, and unhappy. The necessity of dealing with adult problems and adult pain ruins our ignorance toward the evils of society and changes us all into fake, decieving creatures. If I had my way then no one would ever grow up, and thus stay blissfully happy and innocent forever. Like Allie. Its too late to save me but others can be saved. Oh, and for the record, its nice to have an intellgent, non-phony conversation.

Kristofer John Martin Holmquist (commenting as Holden): I think everyone is born innocent. Unfortunately it takes a lot to not make them a phony. It must be something like 99.9% of all people born become phonies. Well, at least from what I can see. It's kind of like a cycle. The kid is born all innocent and lives a few years but they're always influenced by their phony parents and then the kid becomes one himself. It doesn't take long, I've seen it happen myself, in fact. It's a helluva shame, it really is. Though something really has to be in their blood. Take my brother, D.B., for example. He was raised with Allie, Phoebe and I, but he turned out in Hollywood. Now that's a sad story. I guess you can't expect too much out of the first born. Anyways, like I was saying. A kid is always born innocent, no matter what. It just depends on what kind of trouble they fall into that determines what they become.

Nancy Perez respond to Kristofer John Martin Holmquist (commenting as Holden): I truly think that You did a good job to respond this question as Holden. What I like is that the way u just took at firt all out there. You as Holden just said what what was first in mind. No hesintation. Plus Holden seems to want to stay a kid forever and I feel as if he doesn't wants be resposible of his actions. I also like how you went around the topic of Allie's death because he really doesn't touches the topic at first as much. As in he doesn't say it out of the blank like he does to ell us how of a phony someone is. WE got to figure it out on ourselves how he feels about Allie's death. One ot the first examples that I can think of can be the the red cap. Over all your respond is pretty good.

Nick Bailey (commenting as Holden): Man, I would have to say that everyone is born is born innocent. Just take all those damn phonies for example. They were born into that stupid society, and they make no effort to break out of it. That just really upsets me because everyone SHOULD be born innocent but it just doesn't happen anymore I think. Just take people like Jane. She is a perfectly nice girl who is molded by society into being a phony, which makes her evil or not evil, but corrupts her. Its just so damn sad. I really hope that I can teach Phoebe how to be real to herself and those around her and take a stand for what she believes in and become an individual in our corrupted society. D.B was immersed into phony society. He was born knowing what he was going to do, and now because of that he is becoming a phony and being corrupted by society. It just makes me sad and depressed thinking about it. All those boys at Penecy Prep, are so fake and they were all born with the possibility to be not like that, just like Jane. But, they are to scared to break out of that mold and become their own person. That just kills me.